Pop-Ed: A Second ‘Flarrow’ Conversation

The Flash — “Legends of Today” — — Pictured (L-R): Ciara Renee as Kendra Saunders, Grant Gustin as Barry Allen, and Stephen Amell as Oliver Queen — Photo: The CW — © 2015 The CW Network, LLC. All rights reserved.
The Flash — “Legends of Today” — — Pictured (L-R): Ciara Renee as Kendra Saunders, Grant Gustin as Barry Allen, and Stephen Amell as Oliver Queen — Photo: The CW — © 2015 The CW Network, LLC. All rights reserved.

Pop-Break’s Arrow and The Flash recappers Marisa Carpico and Matt Kelly discuss this week’s Flarrow crossover including DC’s Legends of Tomorrow set up fatigue, Zoom’s secret identity and Oliver’s (Stephen Amell) illegitimate child.

Marisa Carpico: So, first off, I think this year’s crossover kicked last year’s ass? How about you?

Matt Kelly: I have mixed feelings about this year’s crossover

Marisa Carpico: Really?! Tell me more.

Matt Kelly: I liked it plenty. I am just tired of Legends of Tomorrow setup. Every other episode we’re checking in on White Canary (Caity Lotz) or Atom (Brandon Routh) or Firestorm (Victor Garber and Franz Drameh) and it is fine, but I really want to know more about Zoom and some of the season arcs and I feel like those episodes don’t count, which bugs me.

Marisa Carpico: I get that. It’s definitely worked a little better on Arrow because these characters were already part of that world while they’ve sort of had to force them in on The Flash.

Matt Kelly: Yeah.

Marisa Carpico: The Earth-2 storyline is so crazy that throwing Legends in really isn’t helping.

Matt Kelly: Especially the Captain Cold isn’t such a bad guy episode.

Marisa Carpico: The worst. I have to say, I’ve felt a little down on Flash this season overall.

Matt Kelly: I like the episodes that aren’t just Legends of Tomorrow setup, but the ones that are go nowhere.

Marisa Carpico: Both shows are definitely going to benefit from Legends finally starting. So does that mean you aren’t into the whole Cisco (Carlos Valdes)/Kendra (Ciara Renée) thing?

Matt Kelly: I think the Cisco/Kendra relationship would be fine if he already hadn’t found the love of his life in Golden Glider (Peyton List), a girl that continues to obsess over him despite getting the worst Cisco nickname.

Marisa Carpico: I cringe every time they interact.


Matt Kelly: It might be my favorite part of the show because it doesn’t make any sense to anyone except Lisa.

Marisa Carpico: Hahaha, completely true. I’m personally all in for Barry (Grant Gustin) and Patty (Shantel VanSanten). She’s just about the only thing keeping Barry from being a total killjoy.

Matt Kelly: Well, that is going to be tough when Patty is revealed to be Zoom.

Marisa Carpico: OMG, I WANT THAT SO MUCH.

Marisa Carpico: Barry’s like Oliver levels of mopey this season.

Matt Kelly: Yeah, we got a bit of that in yesterday’s episode:

Flash – You said we have to be angsty and sad

Arrow – My bad. We can be happy.

I blame Oliver.

Marisa Carpico: But he’s like the sunny optimist compared to Barry now. It’s like watching bizarro versions of the characters.

So did you enjoy anything about either episode? I honestly cheered when everyone got incinerated during Arrow and then Barry saved them all through time travel. I HATED the time travel fallout storyline last year and thought it was great here.

Matt Kelly: Yeah, the T2: Judgement Day scene was great. There was a lot I liked about the episodes. I liked how much of a dick Hawkman (Falk Hentschel) is.

Marisa Carpico: He’s awful.

Matt Kelly: I liked when Speedy (Willa Holland) made fun of Cisco’s hair.

Marisa Carpico: Her, “oh, we know the Flash,” speech was charming.

Matt Kelly: I liked the Egypt flashbacks with all of the eyeliner.

Marisa Carpico: I love that they just dressed up the Nanda Parbat set with some hieroglyphs and hoped we wouldn’t notice

Matt Kelly: Yeah, they might have the silliest version of Ancient Egypt I have ever seen, save for maybe Yu Gi-Oh!

Marisa Carpico: Back to your point on Legends set up distracting from the shows’ more important storylines, it really seemed like both episodes did more to further Arrow storylines than Flash except for Cisco and Kendra’s relationship. Did you get that sense too? This crossover just felt really Arrow-centric to me.

Matt Kelly: Absolutely. I almost feel like they saw it and said, “We need to put some Flash in this episode. Let’s shoot Harry (Tom Cavanagh).”

Marisa Carpico: Yeah, Jay (Teddy Sears) and Harry sort of reconciling was the only thing that really happened.

Matt Kelly: And Patty is definitely going to report Joe (Jesse L. Martin) or something. Also, Velocity 6 exists now.

Marisa Carpico: Her role in that episode was so strange. It felt like a weird attempt to set up her learning that Barry’s the Flash

Matt Kelly: Yeah, she seems to be auditioning for world’s worst detective. They aren’t even trying to hide anything from her and she’s still clueless. Or she isn’t…. Because she’s Zoom. Or Henry (John Wesley Shipp) is Zoom. Or Jay. Or Barry.


Marisa Carpico: Do you legit think that she is? Because I don’t think there’s a snowball’s chance in hell, but it would be really fun if she were. I still think it’s Eddie Thawne (Rick Cosnett).

Matt Kelly: Maaaaaaaaybe. I don’t really buy it. The Internet is convinced it’s Henry and I kind of buy that. My stretch is Earth-1 Jay because where the heck is he?

Marisa Carpico: Henry sounds likely, but disappointing.

Matt Kelly: The theory goes that on Earth-2, Barry does get killed and it drives Henry crazy, kind of like Flashpoint Batman. I don’t love it. The way they wrote his dad out of everything so quickly makes me very suspicious.

Marisa Carpico: Hmm, I guess, but I still don’t see why that would make him want to kill his alternate universe son. Though what they’ve told us about the Earth-2 versions of the character has been almost all nonsense.

Matt Kelly: For speed purposes! Or revenge. I honestly don’t think they’ve decided yet. Apparently, Earth-2 Joe might be a singer. That would be so great it would make me forget all this Legends nonsense ever happened.

Marisa Carpico: That would be amazing.

Marisa Carpico: Though the fact that Oliver’s dad is the Green Arrow makes me worry. The only correct alternative is Sara.

Matt Kelly: True.

So what did you think of Vandal Savage (Casper Crump)?

Marisa Carpico: I was super into Vandal Savage until I realized his motive for repeatedly destroying the world is that he couldn’t handle being friendzoned by Kendra. That might be the worst villain motive they’ve come up with so far. How about you?

Matt Kelly: I wish he was a caveman but I gave up on that a while ago. I like how vague his powers are. I don’t love the knives.

Marisa Carpico: The knives are weird

Matt Kelly: They’re pretty catchable

Marisa Carpico: They didn’t even officially say he could time travel did they?

Matt Kelly: I don’t think he traditionally can. Just live forever.

Marisa Carpico: That seems like an awful existence, frankly.

Matt Kelly: Especially when you have to keep killing the eyeliner crew.

Speaking of Time Travel, I was really expecting to see Rip (Arthur Darvill). Where…or when…was he?

Marisa Carpico: He’s from far in the future. I think he’s not getting introduced until the Legends premiere.

Matt Kelly: He’s the only Legends character we haven’t been painfully introduced to. At this point, why the hell not?

Marisa Carpico: I mean, technically, none of the other Legends characters have even been introduced to each other yet. Hawkgirl and Hawkguy are the only members of the team who’ve even spoken. Well, and I guess the Firestorm boys, but that’s not really the same.

Matt Kelly: Yeah.

Marisa Carpico: So do you think we’ll have to wait all season to find out Zoom’s identity?

Matt Kelly: Yeah. There’s no way well get it at Christmas, like Wells.

Marisa Carpico: Sometimes I wish the way these shows structured their seasons weren’t so predictable. I was hoping we wouldn’t have to wait that long to find out who’s in the grave on Arrow, but it’s not looking good. You have any theories on who dies?

Matt Kelly: Absolutely.

Marisa Carpico: Lay ’em on me.

Matt Kelly: They’re at the grave for Earth-2 Oliver.

Marisa Carpico: No, that’s such a cop out.

Matt Kelly: Not really. People would be furious.

Marisa Carpico: I would kick a puppy

Matt Kelly: Speaking of cop out, it is Captain Lance (Paul Blackthorne) for sure.

Marisa Carpico: Really? Lance seems too meaningless of a death for the show overall and especially Oliver. My money’s on Thea for sure now.

Matt Kelly: Because Roy (Colton Haynes) is coming back?

Marisa Carpico: No–and God forbid his return becomes permanent–but because Oliver’s level of devastation in that scene seems more appropriate for Thea. Plus she’s had a death wish for most of the season. Plus Malcolm (John Barrowman) had that line about going after Oliver if his actions caused her death.

Matt Kelly: I had heard that they didn’t know who was in the coffin when they filmed it.

Marisa Carpico: The actors maybe, but the writers I think have an idea.

Matt Kelly: We will see. I think Thea is too important.

Marisa Carpico: She is, but that doesn’t always stop them. It would be a really smart move character-wise. So much story to mine there

Matt Kelly: Yeah. What did you think about Hawkgirl in general?

Marisa Carpico: She doesn’t move me. She’s becoming more interesting with the flashbacks and the internal conflict of being herself and being driven by thousands of years of past lives, but she alone wouldn’t make me watch the spinoff. I’m probably only really showing up for Sara Lance.

Matt Kelly: Yeah, I think Rip is gonna be the best part.

Marisa Carpico: Word.

Matt Kelly: What did you think about the son bit?

Marisa Carpico: Infuriating and kind of upsetting. I’ve been conflicted about this storyline since they first introduced it two seasons ago. Listen, it makes sense Oliver has an illegitimate child or two out there. He was a ho.

Matt Kelly: Fo sho.

Marisa Carpico: And I like what Amell is doing with the storyline. He did some great work this week.

Matt Kelly: Yeah, he’s the man.

Marisa Carpico: I think it’s a really complex character thing for Oliver to go through and I’m looking forward to seeing where it goes. That said, watching he and Felicity (Emily Bett Rickards) fight like that over something so important was so raw that I really have no desire to see them have that fight again. It was awful. Amell and Rickards were both so good in that scene that I wanted to look away during it.

Matt Kelly: Yeah, it is feeling like some real season three drama

Marisa Carpico: I actually think it’s more Season 1/2 family drama soapiness. And I’m fine with that. As I’ve said, I thought Season 3 was great. It wasn’t always easy to watch because it was so challenging, but I think it was also a damn fine piece of storytelling/character work.

Matt Kelly: Here’s my question: do you think the kid has anything to do with Damien Darhk (Neal McDonough)?

Marisa Carpico: Not unless he’s in the grave, which I think could be a possibility. Huge repercussions without having to lose any of the main heroes.

Matt Kelly: It could. Also do you have theories on what Darhk is all about?

Marisa Carpico: Not really, but I don’t care. Not in a bad way, just that I’m enjoying his theatricality for now and I know from the way this show operates that he won’t really be a problem for Team Arrow until episode 16 at the soonest. Maybe 18.

Matt Kelly: I have heard theories that he is connected to Darkseid. Any comment?

Marisa Carpico: No way. I think that’s a step too far away from gritty realism for the show to go. I think magic and metahumans is as far as the show will get toward comic bookiness.

Matt Kelly: Then what do you think his box is for?

Marisa Carpico: Sleepy Hollow crossover? Given the way Arrow seasons usually go, it’s probably a plague or something that will destroy Star City. Or an earthquake bomb. Take your pick. What do you think it is?

Matt Kelly: I like the theory that it’s a Mother Box, but that’s probably not it.

Marisa Carpico: I think whatever it is will be something Team Arrow can basically handle by the end of the season so Malcolm goes back to being the Big Bad for the 5th, and possibly final, season

Matt Kelly: By the way, why is Malcolm so cool in the Arrow episode and in Flash he has to do goofy shadow entrances?

Marisa Carpico: Because The Flash has never handled gravitas well, which has always been my problem with it.

Matt Kelly: Wells has all of the gravitas. That’s about it.

Marisa Carpico: And he can be similarly cartoonish sometimes. Poor Tom Cavanagh spends whole episodes whispering.

Matt Kelly: Which character did you think benefited from the crossover the most?

Marisa Carpico: Oliver. He had the most character development of anyone. You?

Matt Kelly: Flash for sure.

Marisa Carpico: We are clearly recapping the right shows.

Matt Kelly: He learned a new drawing skill and he got sweet gloves for the winter and magic staffs.

Also, I loved Speedy in the Flash episode.

Marisa Carpico: Speedy was killer in The Flash. Not a pun.

Matt Kelly: She made fun of Cisco’s hair and attempted to murder Vandal Savage. Solid instincts.

Marisa Carpico: Can’t disagree.

Matt Kelly: What was your favorite moment of the episode?

Marisa Carpico: Hmm, need to think on that. You first.

Matt Kelly: The Flash and Arrow vs Hawkman fight for sure.

Marisa Carpico: Ooh, that was fun.

Matt Kelly: Yeah, it really felt like a movie.

Marisa Carpico: The stunts were fantastic for both, even more than usual.

Matt Kelly: And they had all of their fun banter which is what makes these episodes great.

Marisa Carpico: Yeah, I think my favorite thing about the crossover overall was just how ride or die Oliver and Barry are for each other now.

Matt Kelly: For sure. They should team up more often. Like…for instance…if Barry got paralyzed on TV by another speedster again.

Marisa Carpico: Yeah, that would have been a good time to call in back up.

Matt Kelly: My favorite part also may have been the last scene in the Flash episode.

Marisa Carpico: What was that again?

Matt Kelly: Flashuccinos and Oliver is a dad. That face was priceless.

Marisa Carpico: Amell is a gift.

Matt Kelly: I have one more important question. Maybe the most important question for both series.

Marisa Carpico: Oh dear.

Matt Kelly: When will they figure out how to make Laurel’s (Katie Cassidy) Canary Scream not look hilarious?

Marisa Carpico: Never, which is why they should kill her off. It’s so difficult for me to love the current Black Canary comic book so much and feel so apathetic about her screen incarnation. Although, it’s really Cisco’s fault it went from a handheld thing to a collar so…..

Matt Kelly: Cisco just rushed that so he could get that sweet picture. He knows it looks silly. He’s just afraid.